205 replies to this topic

[sesom]

I do not think mod authors should have the option to sell their work. Why? Since in the past, it was illegal. Once you use the CK for anything, your mod was Bethesda's property or whatever. So what about artists who create their own meshes? Unless it's just a bunch of .nif files with no connection to the game, they can't sell those either. And even if it's completely original, it's a .nif file shaped to a Skyrim body mesh and uses Skyrim's body partitions, so it's still illegal to sell these assets you created until you separate them from Skyrim. And if you separate the meshes from Skyrim, it's not a Skyrim mod anymore so why are you even modding if you want to sell that? Just make a separate asset and go to Unity's asset store or whatever.

 

You are wrong here. Derivative work creates automatically a new copyright. It depends on the level of the changes if it is a full one or still needs the permission/license/... of the original creator ( a thing that often only can be solved in court). A mod that someone creates is not under full ownership of Bethesda. (btw. I don't support commercial modding but for completly different reasons).

Edited by sesom, 25 April 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[da mage]

You are wrong here. Derivative work creates automatically a new copyright. It depends on the level of the changes if it is a full one or still needs the permission/license/... of the original creator ( a thing that often only can be solved in court). A mod that someone creates is not under full ownership of Bethesda. (btw. I don't support commercial modding but for completly different reasons).

 

True, but who has the sort of money to take Bethesda to court over their EULA? It would be too expensive the results are unpredictable.

[Sh0dan]

http://www.screwatta...ke-mod-protests

 

I wonder if the Steam CWS could be overburdened with these fake mods. Perhaps then they'd listen?

[ValmarQuartzDragon]

No, I do not support it. I've never paid for a mod, I never will, and the greed @ Bethesda is simply disgusting, especially since they supported free modding for such a long time.

The Skyrim community has always been a pretty tight group, but now through the introduction of the store, a lot of tension has been created overnight. Fans are looking at modders like this was their idea as an attempt to cash in. Free modders are looking at paid modders as sellouts. Legitimate paid modders are looking at newbie paid modders as opportunists. It’s awful, and only made possible through the introduction of the store. Bethesda had a creative, united community until yesterday, and now there’s tons of infighting, not to mention the rage directed at the company itself. Forbes

 

The horrors of Corporate politics... where greed for money is concerned, no matter if it's just to squeeze out a few more bucks, unity, sharing and trust are all second-rate.

[sesom]

True, but who has the sort of money to take Bethesda to court over their EULA? It would be too expensive the results are unpredictable.

 

There is no need. If Bethesda would state in their EULA they own the mod they would be fully responsible for the sales of mods on Steam. It isn't stated that way imo .

 

I am no lawyer so I won't give a assesment about the Creation Kit EULA. But I would recommend who does business with mods to get professional council. Earning money means paying taxes, knowing the law and a lot of things. Think about what happend to youtubers ...

Edited by sesom, 25 April 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[Redguard Hashishin]

Fresh idea! We demand Mod Season Pass for Fallout 4 now! After the game is launched it's too late. We should be charged $30-$40 to freely access any paid mod in the WOrkshop for 1 year! Also, for Early Gnarly Mod Access Of The Mod Season Pass there should be a discount of $2-$4.

[zone22]

True, but who has the sort of money to take Bethesda to court over their EULA? It would be too expensive the results are unpredictable.

I donate three dollars to take them to court. If everybody else felt the same way that signed the petition there'd be over $100,000 at our disposal.

Edited by zone22, 25 April 2015 - 11:15 AM.

[ValmarQuartzDragon]

Fresh idea! We demand Mod Season Pass for Fallout 4 now! After the game is launched it's too late. We should be charged $30-$40 to freely access any paid mod in the WOrkshop for 1 year! Also, for Early Gnarly Mod Access Of The Mod Season Pass there should be a discount of $2-$4.

 

I'm not convinced this is such a great idea...

[schlangster]

Regarding SkyUI, since there's basically only a semi-joke statement floating around (scnr), and one more or less rushed Nexus comment, I figured I might take the time to write down some more things.

SkyUI has been one of those mod projects that took a huge amount of time. It was OK to work on it while I was still a student, but now I can no longer sink that much time into something that is not actually a job. And that is sort of how things normally go as you grow older.

What I can offer at this point is to work on a new version and get paid for it, just like I would do for other kind of software. It wasn't possible before, now it is. If it turns out that it's not something people are willing to pay for, either because they just hate the idea in general, or because they think it's not actually worth any money, then I've wasted my time and that's that, but that's the normal risk. The alternative is to just wait for the next volunteer who has the technical background, the interest, lots of time, and is willing and able to do it for free. For Skyrim, that person was me, and that's the reason why you do not have to play with the default UI on the PC unless you want to.

When going for a new SkyUI version, it was immediately obvious that there were some things I can't and won't do:

#1 I cannot take away the old version, because it's something people already got for free, they are used to it, and they would want to rip my head off if I tried to take it away. Fair enough.
#2 I cannot gimp the old version for reasons of #1.
#3 I cannot make any MCM feature or stuff other mods depend on exclusive to the paid version. The reason is that no mod author would want to depend on features that are not freely available.

Attempting any of the above would have been moronic. What I didn't account for is that apparently people would assume I was lying about it. Probably because they are used to worse. Point taken, but I'm not <random evil company>. I improved your Skyrim UI for free when I still could, purely because it was something that had do be done. I didn't even enjoy doing it. <Random evil company> would not have done that.

What I don't see a problem with is making a new version that is separate from the old and adds a couple of difficult to implement features people requested over the years, and see if these features are something that people are willing to pay for, or if they would prefer using the free version. Especially, if the alternative is that these features would never have been implemented in the first place otherwise.

Edited by schlangster, 25 April 2015 - 11:16 AM.

[Ungweliante]

Emma said:
"If I should charge for the hours I have spent on her and on figuring out and implementing various features of  companion modding since Morrowind, the price would be so ridicilously high that no-one in their right mind would pay it anyway."

I was thinking of this too, earlier. A big mod project can easily involve the work of 20+ people.

I don't think Beth understands how important it is for games to be able to provide a way to escape from reality. With free mods, it's still possible to mod the game into something providing that, but with few paid mods, the interest is lost after a while. And looking at the very rare good-looking Skyrim image, costing ~800 euros in mods won't provide a feeling of awe.
Rather, it'll be one of resentment. One more example how for some people, money isn't an issue. They -can- cough up 800e, plus another 1000e for tested and uninstalled mods, while you can enjoy feeling like a second class human being, for whom even entertainment is subject to social stratification. Kinda like going to the cinema to watch Star Wars VII and having to pay extra for light effects for lightsabers, appearing through mandatory viewing goggles.

 

I wrote plus 1000e since I don't trust in "money-back guarantees". I've been shafted so many times in my life with that. There's always something that comes up, at the last moment, how "we can't accept this return because you have already used the item" or whatever the excuse is. In short, money-back guarantee is not to protect the customer, but to provide a sense of "it's safe to buy this". In short, it's advertising.

 

And talking about advertising, I don't think Beth understands how big of an advertisement benefit the mods are for them. Instead of Gamespot writing a review like "Skyrim has not aged well", they'll rave on and on about how beautiful Skyrim looks in 2015. And also, instead of reviews concentrating on the shallowness of the actual gameplay, they often do pieces on mods which are solutions to this. As a result, the advertisement stays positive all the time.

 

And Talos knows having Skyrim look super beautiful needs a lot of mods.

You'll have one mod for cloud textures, another for rain particles. One for fire, one for firewood. Embers also has one. Then you'll have a combination of 2-3 grass overhauls. You'll have one for trees, one for tree LODs so the trees look good at distance. Then you'll have one for water, one for waterfalls and one for distant waterfall LODs. And so on. Even for that list, it'd be already 13 euros at 1e per mod. And that list is by far not complete. Adding to that, is that it's constantly getting old, as hardware standards change. The point being, it's a HUGE financial benefit to Beth.

Emma said it very well, the essence of modding is sharing.

If you take sharing away, you'll have something as functional as a body without blood circulation. And the result is something like Train Simulator 2015 with quite little coverage, few people who talk about it, and ridiculous amounts of DLC which people seldom buy

 

Edited: grammar, added "at 1e per mod"

Edited by Ungweliante, 25 April 2015 - 11:24 AM.

[Sh0dan]

Regarding SkyUI, since there's basically only a semi-joke statement floating around (scnr), and one more or less rushed Nexus comment, I figured I might take the time to write down some more things.-snip

I'd much rather you just moved on. You're a talented guy, get a real development job. And leave modding a free pastime the way it has always been. Your choices are destroying the equilibrium that has existed since modding games began.

 

Ill never support anyone who goes to CWS to sell a mod.

Edited by Sh0dan, 25 April 2015 - 11:41 AM.

[ValmarQuartzDragon]

Regarding SkyUI, since there's basically only a semi-joke statement floating around (scnr), and one more or less rushed Nexus comment, I figured I might take the time to write down some more things.

SkyUI has been one of those mod projects that took a huge amount of time. It was OK to work on it while I was still a student, but now I can no longer sink that much time into something that is not actually a job. And that is sort of how things normally go as you grow older.

What I can offer at this point is to work on a new version and get paid for it, just like I would do for other kind of software. It wasn't possible before, now it is. If it turns out that it's not something people are willing to pay for, either because they just hate the idea in general, or because they think it's not actually worth any money, then I've wasted my time and that's that, but that's the normal risk. The alternative is to just wait for the next volunteer who has the technical background, the interest, lots of time, and is willing and able to do it for free. For Skyrim, that person was me, and that's the reason why you do not have to play with the default UI on the PC unless you want to.

When going for a new SkyUI version, it was immediately obvious that there were some things I can't and won't do:

#1 I cannot take away the old version, because it's something people already got for free, they are used to it, and they would want to rip my head off if I tried to take it away. Fair enough.
#2 I cannot gimp the old version for reasons of #1.
#3 I cannot make any MCM feature or stuff other mods depend on exclusive to the paid version. The reason is that no mod author would want to depend on features that are not freely available.

Attempting any of the above would have been moronic. What I didn't account for is that apparently people would assume I was lying about it. Probably because they are used to worse. Point taken, but I'm not <random evil company>. I improved your Skyrim UI for free when I still could, purely because it was something that had do be done. I didn't even enjoy doing it. <Random evil company> would not have done that.

What I don't see a problem with is making a new version that is separate from the old and adds a couple of difficult to implement features people requested over the years, and see if these features are something that people are willing to pay for, or if they would prefer using the free version. Especially, if the alternative is that these features would never have been implemented in the first place otherwise.

 

Perhaps you could ask for donations via Nexus in order to implement such features. Make it known that you certainly can't do it without some financial assistance, detailing the same as you've mentioned here. And then I'm sure that enough would be willing to donate to you... and you would get the money directly... and ALL of it. It's MUCH fairer than Valve's disgusting system of theft.

 

Ask for a minimum amount to be able to implement said features. For instance, next week, I can donate $20. Just enable the Nexus donation system for SkyUI.

Edited by ValmarQuartzDragon, 25 April 2015 - 11:23 AM.

[sesom]

Regarding SkyUI, since there's (snip)

 

The problem is simply that SkyUI is a semi essential mod for Skyrim. So regardless what happens and what features are in or not in (free/commercial) it gets a lot of backlash because it is one with that the payed modding system was started.

 

Not a good idea being the posterchild imo but everyone how he likes.

[Doctor_is_in]

Regarding SkyUI, since there's basically only a semi-joke statement floating around (scnr), and one more or less rushed Nexus comment, I figured I might take the time to write down some more things.

SkyUI has been one of those mod projects that took a huge amount of time. It was OK to work on it while I was still a student, but now I can no longer sink that much time into something that is not actually a job. And that is sort of how things normally go as you grow older.

What I can offer at this point is to work on a new version and get paid for it, just like I would do for other kind of software. It wasn't possible before, now it is. If it turns out that it's not something people are willing to pay for, either because they just hate the idea in general, or because they think it's not actually worth any money, then I've wasted my time and that's that, but that's the normal risk. The alternative is to just wait for the next volunteer who has the technical background, the interest, lots of time, and is willing and able to do it for free. For Skyrim, that person was me, and that's the reason why you do not have to play with the default UI on the PC unless you want to.

When going for a new SkyUI version, it was immediately obvious that there were some things I can't and won't do:

#1 I cannot take away the old version, because it's something people already got for free, they are used to it, and they would want to rip my head off if I tried to take it away. Fair enough.
#2 I cannot gimp the old version for reasons of #1.
#3 I cannot make any MCM feature or stuff other mods depend on exclusive to the paid version. The reason is that no mod author would want to depend on features that are not freely available.

Attempting any of the above would have been moronic. What I didn't account for is that apparently people would assume I was lying about it. Probably because they are used to worse. Point taken, but I'm not <random evil company>. I improved your Skyrim UI for free when I still could, purely because it was something that had do be done. I didn't even enjoy doing it. <Random evil company> would not have done that.

What I don't see a problem with is making a new version that is separate from the old and adds a couple of difficult to implement features people requested over the years, and see if these features are something that people are willing to pay for, or if they would prefer using the free version. Especially, if the alternative is that these features would never have been implemented in the first place otherwise.

I think you misunderstand where the community's anger is directed. It's not so much that you want to make some money off your mod as the fact that you are doing it with an immensely popular mod that has become a staple of the modding community. You're consciously and willingly supporting this change that no one but big business really stands benefit from, at the community's expense, no less, and to many people, that is akin to an utter betrayal.

Edited by Doctor_is_in, 25 April 2015 - 11:29 AM.

[andyw]

Reposting Emma's very eloquent post.

Emma, your mail box is full, so I can't pm you. Thank you for this. From one old timer to another.


http://forums.bethso...6#entry23944942
 

 

A few points I think I'd like to make.

 

Yes, the spirit of modding is sharing. But I don't think that allowing people to sell those (exceptional) mods that are worth selling (I'lll get onto the 'worth' bit later) is necessarily a problem with the spirit of sharing.

 

Amateur photographers meet, comment on each others' work, swap tips on equipment or techniques, give advice to newbies... and those with enough skill and artistry (and the inclination) sell their photos. Not for a huge amount, in most cases, maybe not even enough to defray what they spend on equipment (let alone time).

 

Web-comic artists compliment each other on work done, include links on their websites to rival sites they admire, offer hints on technique, describe publicly the way they work, send fan-art to other webcomics, help each other out by providing filler content when an artist needs a holiday or is sick... and those who can (and wish to) sell merchandising, advertising space, printed books. Some put up a few chapters of their work on line, then the rest is only available (for a price) in print.

 

The point is, people don't inevitably and always become greedy, grasping and unhelpful just because some of them can make a little money from their hobby, and a very, very few can make their hobby into a career.

 

I see no reason, in principle, why modding for Elder Scrolls games (now and going into the future) shouldn't be sufficiently mature for those who can make a small (or even a lot) of money from their mods and who choose to do so, from existing alongside those who don't wish to make any money from their hobby, or who's work is too niche and specialised to command a large audience, or who have neither the time nor inclination to develop the necessary skill or artistry. And there's no reason why modders producing mods for free and modders raising some money from their mods shouldn't still help each other out.

 

Even if you say that modders charging money for their mods aren't sharing with mod users, considering the huge investment of time and effort into some mods, and the artistry and quality of those mods, even charging a very modest fee is still erring on the generous side. It's less in a spirit of sharing than giving away their work, but it is still sharing.

 

And, let's face an unpleasant reality here; the majority of mod users share nothing. Maybe a tenth will take the time to upvote. From Wrinkly Ninja's experience, maybe 12 out of more than a million will make a donation. From Emma's own comments, a fair number will only share demands and complaints. So let's not lionise any but the exceptionally generous mod user who takes time to courteously report on issues with a mod, or share a generous review.

 

Now, how recompensing mod users for their mods (for those who wish some recompense) is done matters. Right at the start of this fiasco I expressed serious reservations about how it was being done by Valve, and it turns out the reality is far worse. But that is a criticism of Valve's approach, their lack of thought and preparation, their grotesque misjudgement of the ES mod users (and perhaps modders), and their high-handed attitude when things were clearly turning into a disaster. It isn't a criticism of the basic idea of letting mod creators put a price on their mods.

 

And, finally, the knotty problem of 'worth'. How can one say one mod is more 'worthy' of selling than another. Basically, this has little bearing on intrinsic worth. It is entirely, I regret, about popularity. Yes, a mod that clearly has great artistic and technical talent put into it, as well as professionalism and quality control, is more likely to be popular than one that is an unmitigated heap of dreck. But no matter how good a mod is, if it happens to be doing something that few if any mod users want (or are willing to pay for) then it is unlikely to be 'worth' putting a price on. Sadly, some garbage is more saleable than art. That's human nature in a mass-market world. But it isn't, in itself, a reason to criticise or hound mod authors for wishing to charge for their work, nor is it a reason to stop them.

[zone22]

Regarding SkyUI, -Snip-

it frustrates me to hear this but I really do respect your decision.

 

The frustrating part comes the detriment this will have across the entire community. Not only for Skyrim but really for the next game.

Do what you have to do to continue doing what you enjoy. Would help for me donate $10? but I will not pay through steam workshop.

[Andaius]

dunno if anyone posted this:

 

https://www.change.o...-steam-workshop

 

hit 50K signatures in a day, and they say they're looking at 100K by the next...

 

lots of good stuff being made and linked on the steam fourms paid mod megathread

https://steamcommuni...com/ZcBLRcz.gif

that one was funny

[Gheart]

Wow. Good job Bethesda. You actually managed to get me to stop forgiving your shortcomings when it comes to your games. Instead of modding in what you messed up we now have to (potentially) pay for it? I'm all for content creators getting payment, but not in this ridiculous system.

 

Here comes the age of early access third party DLC.

 

EDIT: Can someone please put up a mod on the workshop to pay for horse armor? Then we will have come full circle.

Edited by Gheart, 25 April 2015 - 11:38 AM.

[sesom]

A few points I think I'd like to make.

(snip)

 

Thinking about it when a new Beth game is released and what happens with mods then I disagree. We already had stuff like advertisment for the commercial mod !!!ingame!!! in the free version of it. Simply try to imagine what happens when a new Beth game is hitting the shleves. Addmitted Skyrim already is over this stage but I am pretty sure the next one gets this "feature" right from the start.

 

It's not about making a mod for myself anymore and share it, working with the community to improve it, it's about how do i best sell my stuff. Read the mod description of "The Tree" on NV Nexus to understand (which actually is a parody of this scheme). The same happend to the SIMS 2 as EA allowed mod selling.

Edited by sesom, 25 April 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[Mavkiel]

I think you misunderstand where the community's anger is directed. It's not so much that you want to make some money off your mod as the fact that you are doing it with an immensely popular mod that has become a staple of the modding community. You're consciously and willingly supporting this change that no one but big business really stands benefit from, at the community's expense, no less, and to many people, that is an utter betrayal.

 

Really? Him keeping the old version free to use and without ads is a betrayal? Simply because he wanted to create an improved version of that mod and actually get paid for it? Damn, did I just enter a Communist country? People wanting to get paid for their art. Oh the horror.

 

What annoys me with this setup is that they(steam) are depending on the community to do their work. By that I mean Valve should be making sure products are actually worth being sold in the shop. As it stands they are turning their games into an Ebay sort of setup (Everyone just throwing crap up and hoping something sells). I much prefer an Amazon style setup. They talk to various trusted mod authors and allow them to sell using their store.

[Guard]

guess I'll have to play their next games vanilla mode.

[JohnnyH1982]

Regarding SkyUI, since there's basically only a semi-joke statement floating around (scnr), and one more or less rushed Nexus comment, I figured I might take the time to write down some more things.

SkyUI has been one of those mod projects that took a huge amount of time. It was OK to work on it while I was still a student, but now I can no longer sink that much time into something that is not actually a job. And that is sort of how things normally go as you grow older.

What I can offer at this point is to work on a new version and get paid for it, just like I would do for other kind of software. It wasn't possible before, now it is. If it turns out that it's not something people are willing to pay for, either because they just hate the idea in general, or because they think it's not actually worth any money, then I've wasted my time and that's that, but that's the normal risk. The alternative is to just wait for the next volunteer who has the technical background, the interest, lots of time, and is willing and able to do it for free. For Skyrim, that person was me, and that's the reason why you do not have to play with the default UI on the PC unless you want to.

When going for a new SkyUI version, it was immediately obvious that there were some things I can't and won't do:

#1 I cannot take away the old version, because it's something people already got for free, they are used to it, and they would want to rip my head off if I tried to take it away. Fair enough.
#2 I cannot gimp the old version for reasons of #1.
#3 I cannot make any MCM feature or stuff other mods depend on exclusive to the paid version. The reason is that no mod author would want to depend on features that are not freely available.

Attempting any of the above would have been moronic. What I didn't account for is that apparently people would assume I was lying about it. Probably because they are used to worse. Point taken, but I'm not <random evil company>. I improved your Skyrim UI for free when I still could, purely because it was something that had do be done. I didn't even enjoy doing it. <Random evil company> would not have done that.

What I don't see a problem with is making a new version that is separate from the old and adds a couple of difficult to implement features people requested over the years, and see if these features are something that people are willing to pay for, or if they would prefer using the free version. Especially, if the alternative is that these features would never have been implemented in the first place otherwise.

I really do sympathise entirely, and I love SkyUI and thank you for all your efforts to make it awesome. I also don't fault you for wanting to make some money for all your hard earned effort. What has gone wrong here, is Valve & Bethesda Softworks implementation of this. 

[SFGR PHOENIX]

I would like to comment on something the moderator Pluto said in Thread #6:

 

As we stated in one of the earlier threads...
Every mod can still have one thread just like before, regardless of where it is hosted or if it has a price on the Workshop. WIP and REL threads are here for everyone to discuss the mods, track bugs, and share with the community. The purchase itself happens on Steam, far from the forum.

If we see people abusing how they promote their mods, we will make changes to the rules and/or how we handle advertising for the price.

So far nothing on your specific question has come to our attention that needs addressing, but yes, we are aware that we might need to re-evaluate what defines "advertising" for a mod with a price tag.

 

 

One solution could be enforcing an ammendment that requres notice of payment, and having that particular bit of text colored or bolded, as well as a Bracketed notification such as [PAID] or some such device so that the forum users can know ahead of time what mods are paid mods and what are free mods. Free mods would not require a tag in the title, since they are free be default.

 

----------------------------

 

Now for my own opinions:

 

If you are one of those who are requesting payment for your mods, you are a leech living off of someone else's work. That is all.

[Doctor_is_in]

Really? Him keeping the old version free to use and without ads is a betrayal? Simply because he wanted to create an improved version of that mod and actually get paid for it? Damn, did I just enter a Communist country? People wanting to get paid for their art. Oh the horror.

 

Did you read my post at all? It's less about the money and more about the principle and the precedent that this sets. Besides, I'm not wholeheartedly endorsing that viewpoint, I'm just trying to elaborate on some of the backlash.

[JohnnyH1982]

guess I'll have to play their next games vanilla mode.

The problem with that train of thought is it punishes modders and not the people who brought this whole calamity on in the first place. I'm thinking this has killed my hype for Fallout 4. 

[Sh0dan]

What annoys me with this setup is that they(steam) are depending on the community to do their work. By that I mean Valve should be making sure products are actually worth being sold in the shop. As it stands they are turning their games into an Ebay sort of setup (Everyone just throwing crap up and hoping something sells). I much prefer an Amazon style setup. They talk to various trusted mod authors and allow them to sell using their store.

They could just employ these guys to make official addon content. But this was is better for shareholders. The little guy loses, as usual.

[Ceruulean]

You are wrong here. Derivative work creates automatically a new copyright. It depends on the level of the changes if it is a full one or still needs the permission/license/... of the original creator ( a thing that often only can be solved in court). A mod that someone creates is not under full ownership of Bethesda. (btw. I don't support commercial modding but for completly different reasons).

 

You tell me I'm wrong and then say that ownership depends. Well that's the sticky part right there. If I made a new music track and it uses TES main theme? Forget it, I don't think I can sell that without being a little shady. Of course, if the main theme is only partially there or the music is inspired by it or something, then Beth probably has no legal grounds to accuse me of stealing.

 

You say a "mod that someone creates is not under full ownership of Bethesda." Then it's partially owned. What's the difference? Both the modder and Bethesda have legitimate claims to a mod and a fight will end in stalemate at best (Beth has more money so Beth can win easily hands-down). But as long as the mod was free to make and free to use for the game it was designed for, no one really cares about the profit since there was none to begin with, and we're all happy.

 

Of course, "paid modding" has changed all this and now you can sell mods through the curated Workshop. Until you create a sword based off of some other game franchise and that company wants to sue you for it. Or use assets from another modder who decides they want a cut after all. Or you're making a DLC with a team of 20+ and have to squabble over distribution costs (that reminds me of the time my friend opened a lemonade stand and I came over to help her run it. At some point, all her neighbors wanted to join in the business and in the end, we each got 10 cents out of five dollars for all that work. So rewarding....) Or mods break a game and conflicts with others and leaves people unhappy since not only had they wasted time, but money too.

 

So this is why I do not support selling mods, because you become a sellout and nothing stops you from taking other people's work to make your profit since the big corporations condone it. At least in free modding, everything was free so money didn't matter, only integrity and maybe laws. But now its money, laws and integrity on the line.

[Gheart]

I'm thinking this has killed my hype for Fallout 4. 

 

I'm with you on that. If Fallout 4 is just a shell of a game to be fleshed out by third party DLC then I don't want anything to do with it.

[Mardoxx]

I'm with you on that. If Fallout 4 is just a shell of a game to be fleshed out by third party DLC then I don't want anything to do with it.

You're going to have to wait and see. It will still be a huge hit regardless of how many people try and boycot it. I mean look at some of these FPS games!

[sesom]

You tell me I'm wrong and then say that ownership depends. Well that's the sticky part right there. If I made a new music track and it uses TES main theme? Forget it, I don't think I can sell that without being a little shady. Of course, if the main theme is only partially there or the music is inspired by it or something, then Beth probably has no legal grounds to accuse me of stealing.

 

You say a "mod that someone creates is not under full ownership of Bethesda." Then it's partially owned. What's the difference? Both the modder and Bethesda have legitimate claims to a mod and a fight will end in stalemate at best (Beth has more money so Beth can win easily hands-down). But as long as the mod was free to make and free to use for the game it was designed for, no one really cares about the profit since there was none to begin with, and we're all happy.

 

Of course, "paid modding" has changed all this and now you can sell mods through the curated Workshop. Until you create a sword based off of some other game franchise and that company wants to sue you for it. Or use assets from another modder who decides they want a cut after all. Or you're making a DLC with a team of 20+ and have to squabble over distribution costs (that reminds me of the time my friend opened a lemonade stand and I came over to help her run it. At some point, all her neighbors wanted to join in the business and in the end, we each got 10 cents out of five dollars for all that work. So rewarding....) Or mods break a game and conflicts with others and leaves people unhappy since not only had they wasted time, but money too.

 

So this is why I do not support selling mods, because you become a sellout and nothing stops you from taking other people's work to make your profit since the big corporations condone it. At least in free modding, everything was free so money didn't matter, only integrity and maybe laws. But now its money, laws and integrity on the line.

 

It's a legal topic so you have to be precise. Simple as that. Bold statements like "Beth owns it all" are confusing and give a wrong impression. I won't discuss anything about lawsuits and who has the greater chance to win because there are a ton of other things to be considered too. Thats stuff for lawyers and not a game website forum.

Edited by sesom, 25 April 2015 - 11:58 AM.