209 replies to this topic

[ChapTES]

Previous thread. http://forums.bethso...-mods-thread-5/

 

 

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Link to the announcement thread.

Copy of the FAQ:


Quote
For Creators

Q. How do I set the price of my item?
A. When posting a new mod or item to the Skyrim Workshop you’ll be presented with some controls and a checklist to get your item listed for sale.

Q. How much should I charge for my item?
A. The appropriate price for your mod, map, or item will depend on a number of factors. Here are some things to think about:
1. How many similar items are already available for sale or for free?
2. How much unique content have you created? Is this something which is hard for others to do?
3. How many hours of playtime does your experience offer?

Q. Can I change the price of my item once posted?
A. Yes, but there may be limitations on how frequently you can adjust your price.

Q. What if I see someone posting content I've created?
A. If someone has copied your work, please use the DMCA takedown notice.

Q. Can I include someone else's mod in my mod?
A. The Steam Workshop makes it easy to allocate and approve portions of your item’s revenue with other collaborators or co-authors.

Q. Can I delete my Workshop item?
A. You can stop selling and delist your Workshop item, but it cannot be deleted. If there are customers have purchased your item, they will need continued access to the mod as well as your Workshop page so they can reference the items they have purchased.

Q. How do I get paid for sales of my item?
A. Please see Workshop Revenue FAQ

Q. Can I sell the mods I’ve made for other games in the Steam Workshop?
A. It is up to the developers or publisher of each game to decide if paid Workshop mods are appropriate for their game. You will only be able to sell mods for a game in the Steam Workshop if the developers have enabled that functionality.

Q. Can I sell a mod that contains artwork or content from another game or movie?
A. You must have the necessary rights to post any content that you post to the Steam Workshop, whether it is for sale or not. If you upload copyrighted content that you or your contributors do not have the rights to distribute, then you may forfeit all earned revenue from the item, may be liable for damages and compensation, and may be banned from future participation in this Workshop or the Steam Community in general.

For Players

Q. Can I get a refund?
A. If you discover that a mod does not work for you, or does not meet your expectations based on the description of the mod, you can get a refund within 24 hours of your purchase. You can view the full refund policy here.

Q. How much do paid mods cost?
A. The prices for mods are set by their authors, and depend on their size, complexity, and the type of content. Unique quests that may contain dozens of hours of playtime will probably cost more than a new hat for your character.

Q. Where can I find the mods I've purchased?
A. In your Steam Inventory

Q. Why can't I rate all the mods I see in the Steam Workshop?
A. For paid Workshop items, you need to have purchased the item before you can rate it.

Q. What happens if a mod I bought breaks?
A. Sometimes one mod may modify the same files as another mod, or a particular combination of mods may cause unexpected outcomes. If you find that mod has broken or is behaving unexpectedly, it is best to post politely on the Workshop item's page and let the mod author know the details of what you are seeing.

Q. Couldn’t I already buy items made in the Workshop?
A. While a few games support voting for items to be integrated by game developers and sold in-game as items or DLC, there hasn’t until now been a way to buy items directly through the Workshop. With paid mods and items becoming available for sale on the Workshop itself, it means more high quality items, mods, and experiences can be made available for your favorite games.

Q. How do I play a Skyrim mod I’ve purchased or subscribed to?
A. Once you’re acquired a new mod, simply launch Skyrim from your Steam library. When the launcher appears, you’ll notice status text on the lower-left as your game downloads and installs or updates new content. Once that’s done, you’re ready to go!
 

You can also use the “Data Files” portion of the launcher to activate or deactivate specific mods. If you’re unsure how to access new content in-game (such as figuring out which in-game vendor carries Lydia’s new hat) it’s best to check the Workshop page for that mod to see if the author has provided any clues or instructions.

[Madcat124]

The whole SkyUI thing is downright distasteful.

[Lady Nerevar]

Reposting my last reply from the last thread. Whether or not I like the SkyUI decision (I don't think it was the best way to go, to be honest), I think the way he is being treated makes the whole Community Spirit argument moot. This community has no spirit if we're willing to treat our modders like that.

 

That much is true, and it is very sad. But at the same time, every SkyUI dev has said the project is finished, and yet now they decide to update merely to cash out. I know they did phenomenal work, but updating just for the sake of updating coupled with the disgusting comment Mardoxx made is leading me to see these guys as sellouts and nothing more. I will be eager to get my donation back from them and not use it to pay for their mod.

You can see it that way, sure. The way I read it, he considered the project "finished" in the sense that he couldn't work on it anymore. Now, with money on in the equation, he can afford to work on it again. He can take a day off of work or something, knowing that he'll probably see a return on that investment. 
 
Hell, I don't really even care if you still think that's a bad move. You're welcome to. I just think the "you should be grateful that I downloaded your mod in the first place" and "go [censored] yourself" attitude people are displaying in that thread is extremely uncalled for. The mod, in its previously finished state, will remain free. If you want the optional update, it costs all of $1. $1. People are threatening this guy over the price of a stick of gum.
 
 

Let's do the math here, alright? So let's say that... of those people who endorsed it, 1% of them donated, alright? Now, that's kinda' low, but it's still $2700 assuming everyone donated a dollar. Now then, let's look at downloads from the workshop. Not only do they have to go over $400, but so far we've only seen a mod at most reach 400 subscribers. You think most of these mod makers, after all of this negative coverage are actually going to reach enough subscribers to reach anywhere near 2700 even without the 75% markup? I think not, especially when there's usually a lot better alternatives on the Nexus, and all of the big mods that you have to pay for will still be updated. Essentially, you're impatient if you buy one of the big mods at this point.

1% is probably being very, very generous. I'm not the SkyUI guy, or terribly popular, but I do create content. In the past six years or so, I've received a total of one donation. I was super grateful for it! I wrote the guy a thank you letter and everything. I'm still overwhelmed that anyone gave anything to me at all. But, at the same time, I've made double digits selling my work directly in various ways (private commissions, contract work, stores, etc.). At the same time that I was doing that, I continued offering my content and my advice for free on the internet. Money doesn't make me (or any freelancer I know) greedy and secretive. We all recognize that we're in a small community and have to support eachother. All money does is allow us to pay our bills and put some food on the table. 

Edited by Lady Nerevar, 24 April 2015 - 03:58 PM.

[ChapTES]

Reposting my last reply from the last thread. Whether or not I like the SkyUI decision (I don't think it was the best way to go, to be honest), I think the way he is being treated makes the whole Community Spirit argument moot. This community has no spirit if we're willing to treat our modders like that.

 

You can see it that way, sure. The way I read it, he considered the project "finished" in the sense that he couldn't work on it anymore. Now, with money on in the equation, he can afford to work on it again. He can take a day off of work or something, knowing that he'll probably see a return on that investment. 
 
Hell, I don't really even care if you still think that's a bad move. You're welcome to. I just think the "you should be grateful that I downloaded your mod in the first place" and "go [censored] yourself" attitude people are displaying in that thread is extremely uncalled for. The mod, in its previously finished state, will remain free. If you want the optional update, it costs all of $1. $1. People are threatening this guy over the price of a stick of gum.
 
 

1% is probably being very, very generous. I'm not the SkyUI guy, or a terribly popular, but I do create content. In the past six years or so, I've received a total of one donation. I was super grateful for it! I wrote the guy a thank you letter and everything. I'm still overwhelmed that anyone gave anything to me at all. But, at the same time, I've made double digits selling my work directly in various ways (private commissions, stores, etc.).

Did you download any other modders work? If so that's how the system is meant to function. Is this setting a good example for future potential modders. I actually had a thought of trying my hand at modding, but what is the point now it's been tainted. Why should someone who provides a free mod let another modder who has a paid mod use his mod? When the free modder has to pay to use the other guy's mod.

[Ovan]

 

I think people are motivated to donate now more than ever.

 

Definitely, I know I'm a bit more motivated to donate now, and when I get my hands on some extra cash I can spend, I'll spend in on an author like Elianora, Trainwiz (even though he doesn't take donations), or the SKSE team or something. There's no way in hell I'm giving my money to people making paid mods at this point. Hell, I might donate to Chesko for taking his mods down.

 

Lady Nerevar, on 24 Apr 2015 - 5:52 PM, said:

 

1% is probably being very, very generous. I'm not the SkyUI guy, or a terribly popular, but I do create content. In the past six years or so, I've received a total of one donation. I was super grateful for it! I wrote the guy a thank you letter and everything. I'm still overwhelmed that anyone gave anything to me at all. But, at the same time, I've made double digits selling my work directly in various ways (private commissions, stores, etc.).

 

I'm actually certain that these bigger modders have gotten more than what I just stated. I will admit that in the short run, this will be good for smaller modders no doubt, assuming they can get past the 400 mark. As for the big modders, I still just see this being nothing but trouble for them. I don't think they need or, nor will ever need it.

 

[Ballowers100]

Interesting Tripwire Interactive updated their End User License Agreement (EULA) for Killing Floor 2 to not allow mods to be sold on the Steam Workshop,

 

https://www.reddit.c...loor_2_eula_on/

[TrevorDemented]

Is it illegal for the modders to sell mods on their own sites cutting out the middle men? If this is about the modders making a profit then that should be an option but I don't see that option.

[Ovan]

Interesting Tripwire Interactive updated their End User License Agreement (EULA) for Killing Floor 2 to not allow mods to be sold on the Steam Workshop,

 

https://www.reddit.c...loor_2_eula_on/

 

Aha! Even other game devs are with us it seems.

[pralima87]

My real only concern right now is the pricing and commission of the modders.

The commission should be based on merit.

 

Modders like the SkyUI team, Chesko, isoku and many others should get more the 75%.

They should get at least 50% at minimum.

 

But even so.

The pricing is just way too much right now.

And those weapons and armor mods.... oh my that is just really sad..

[Iikagen]

SkyUI folks are free to sell their work. But it's just sad to see it happening. I really doubt it would have gotten the same amount of support and integration with other mods had it started out as a paid mod. And now to see them capitalizing on that fact when they switch to a paid model is just distasteful.

 

Plus now modders will have to decide whether to support 5.0 or 4.1 =\

[Sir-Stabs-Alot]

 

You can see it that way, sure. The way I read it, he considered the project "finished" in the sense that he couldn't work on it anymore. Now, with money on in the equation, he can afford to work on it again. He can take a day off of work or something, knowing that he'll probably see a return on that investment. 
 
Hell, I don't really even care if you still think that's a bad move. You're welcome to. I just think the "you should be grateful that I downloaded your mod in the first place" and "go [censored] yourself" attitude people are displaying in that thread is extremely uncalled for. The mod, in its previously finished state, will remain free. If you want the optional update, it costs all of $1. $1. People are threatening this guy over the price of a stick of gum.
 

See, I didn't read it that way. I read it as "we can get money now so I might as well update," which I think is the wrong attitude. Granted, we will never know their true intentions even if they lay them out (whitewashing is a thing), but I just can't help but feel slighted by them for this. I am with you with regards to the attitude problems people are displaying, I think all of us are guilty of not being thankful enough for the hard work modders put in. But with that being said, I think the comment that Mardoxx made is well-deserving of negative press. Even if you feel like you're not being appreciated enough (which he isn't), saying something like "it's only money" is like the definition of patronizing and is downright offensive to people who may be underprivileged. You're correct, $1.00 isn't anything at all, but for me it's just the principle really. SkyUI is worth a lot more obviously, but I'm still just stuck on the principle of the matter coupled with the dev's attitude. 

Edited by Sir-Stabs-Alot, 24 April 2015 - 04:04 PM.

[Ballowers100]

Aha! Even other game devs are with us it seems.

Yep it looks like more video game developers are probably going to be doing this if Tripwire Interactive did this to Killing Floor 2.

 

A rumor also earlier was circulating reddit.com about Cities: Skylines doing what Tripwire Interactive did.

Edited by Ballowers100, 24 April 2015 - 04:03 PM.

[Antisanta]

1% is probably being very, very generous. I'm not the SkyUI guy, or terribly popular, but I do create content. In the past six years or so, I've received a total of one donation. I was super grateful for it! I wrote the guy a thank you letter and everything. I'm still overwhelmed that anyone gave anything to me at all. But, at the same time, I've made double digits selling my work directly in various ways (private commissions, contract work, stores, etc.). At the same time that I was doing that, I continued offering my content and my advice for free on the internet. Money doesn't make me (or any freelancer I know) greedy and secretive. We all recognize that we're in a small community and have to support eachother. All money does is allow us to pay our bills and put some food on the table. 

 

Even if it was 1/10 of a percent, that's still $270 right? (correct me if I'm wrong, never cared much for math)  If you sold $270 worth of your mod on Steam, you wouldn't even see one cent of that.  

[Houseparty]

Worst case scenario imo is a scorched earth policy where the Nexus and TES Alliance is shelled to the point they collapse.

 

Most definately a horror scenario. Especially since there's no real check on plagiarizing (whole mods or parts of them) on either side. And copyright on mod content is generally a gray area, to make things worse.

[princess_stomper]

Just a reminder to refrain from insulting or being aggressive with each other

Moderators actually *are* compensated. Not with money, but they do get games and merchandise. Furthermore, these forums are some of the last game dev ones that use community volunteers, rather than having paid community managers handing the moderation.

It's an interesting analogy because I am both a modder and a moderator: the games and merchandise is always welcome - a much-appreciated "thank you" for the time we put in here, but I wouldn't call it "compensation" as such. It's like saying your mother is compensated for everything she does for you because you bought her a bunch of flowers on Mother's Day. I have a dayjob on reasonable pay and very generous conditions: it's pretty unlikely that if Bethesda offered me a job they'd be willing to match what my employer gives me, so moderating is something I'm happy to do as a hobby but would absolutely not do as a job. I'm under no obligation here, I can stop any time, do as little as I want, but I spend a few hours per week here because I'd be coming here anyway as a participant in the community. Drawing that analogy back to the modding stuff - my version of Solstheim Castle took me a year. If I charged money for it, it's pretty unlikely that even many thousands of downloads could generate an income that would match my hourly labour rate, let alone if Korana resurfaced and I split it with her (since it was her ideas). I'd be thinking, "I worked really hard for a year, and only made £x, this is so unfair!" Whereas currently this is something I did for fun and shared it freely because frankly it came out really well and I think you'd enjoy it.

I dont have much of an income, and pay-walling mods would pretty much cut me out of a hobby that I have enjoyed since i first started gaming on PC. I dont have any more money to give. If I did I'd buy more games and not spend my time modding.

Well, for what it's worth, I'm not going to charge for mods, so that's several you can access for free for a start. They're not perfect (I don't think I've ever seen a perfect mod!) but I like them and I hope you will too. I have a feeling there are thousands of other modders like me who are that bit old-fashioned, and will continue to do it just for fun in a bring-and-share mentality, so I think your game is safe for now.

[Ovan]

Yep it looks like more video game developers are probably going to be doing this if Tripwire Interactive did this to Killing Floor 2.

 

A rumor also earlier was circulating reddit.com about Cities: Skylines doing what Tripwire Interactive did.

 

Oh yes, I can definitely see Paradox doing that. They are a very community-orientated publisher.

[broder_fisk]

I only use SkyUI because some other mods that I use depend on it.

I prefer the vanilla UI personally, even if it isn't perfect either.

 

I've been thinking this through, and these are my thoughts:

 

Mod authors being able to sell their work for money?

That's fine by me. They did the work, so I don't mind them being able to sell it. I might even pay for a mod...

IF It's a mod that I really want, and if can't or don't want to bother with making that mod myself.

IF It's reasonably cheap.

IF Most of the money goes to the mod author and no one else. (So no, I won't buy from Steam Workshop.)

IF I'm certain that it won't mess upp my game, and

IF It does not contain someone else's work, who has not given permission to others including their assets in paid mods.

 

BUT

If this is going to work, mod authors need legal protection for their work. Something like it being illegal to include someone else's work in a file, even if that work was free - if the original content creator has stated that they don't want others to make profit off of that content. As it is now, it doesn't work and it will only be bad for everyone involved.

 

Edit: Oops, I used the word "work" a lot there. My English teacher would not have been pleased

Edited by broder_fisk, 24 April 2015 - 04:11 PM.

[EtherealShadow]

I think part of the problem with SkyUI in general is that it is a prerequisite for many other mods. If those mods start requiring the new version, we'll have to pay for a mod to use another mod that we'll also likely have to pay for. Many mods have other mods as prerequisites, and all of them charging could get out of hand really quickly, especially when you consider how easily mods can be messed up. Having to pay for a mod and find out a week later that it doesn't work with another mod that you really wanted would be an awful feeling. Really wanting one mod but having to pay for all five of it's prerequisites would be similarly awful. 

 

I think this was a good idea on Bethesda and Steam's part, but I don't think it was well thought out before they implemented it. Mods aren't all singular things that just work by themselves; they interact with each other, sometimes in ways that can break the game (or your save, at least), and it can very easily take more than 24 hours to realize two mods you have conflict with each other if they only do so in one small area (say towards the end of the MQ). Realizing you can't use both of these mods you bought a few days after your refund period because they didn't interact until one specific point in the game is going to happen to people, and it's going to suck.

[tgl1992]

The whole SkyUI thing is downright distasteful.

Fill me in, please. Im on mobile, but missed whatever it is about SkyUI...

[Lagaroth]

I think part of the problem with SkyUI in general is that it is a prerequisite for many other mods. If those mods start requiring the new version, we'll have to pay for a mod to use another mod that we'll also likely have to pay for. Many mods have other mods as prerequisites, and all of them charging could get out of hand really quickly, especially when you consider how easily mods can be messed up. Having to pay for a mod and find out a week later that it doesn't work with another mod that you really wanted would be an awful feeling. Really wanting one mod but having to pay for all five of it's prerequisites would be similarly awful. 

 

I think this was a good idea on Bethesda and Steam's part, but I don't think it was well thought out before they implemented it. Mods aren't all singular things that just work by themselves; they interact with each other, sometimes in ways that can break the game (or your save, at least), and it can very easily take more than 24 hours to realize two mods you have conflict with each other if they only do so in one small area (say towards the end of the MQ). Realizing you can't use both of these mods you bought a few days after your refund period because they didn't interact until one specific point in the game is going to happen to people, and it's going to suck.

They have said that any changes to MCM will be back ported to 4.1. (The free version)

[Mardoxx]

SkyUI folks are free to sell their work. But it's just sad to see it happening. I really doubt it would have gotten the same amount of support and integration with other mods had it started out as a paid mod. And now to see them capitalizing on that fact when they switch to a paid model is just distasteful.

Plus now modders will have to decide whether to support 5.0 or 4.1 =\

Any changes to core infrastructure like MCM flows back to the free version as well, so no one will be forced to upgrade or anything like that

[Ovan]

Any changes to core infrastructure like MCM flows back to the free version as well, so no one will be forced to upgrade or anything like that

 

This has the smell of mobile apps all over it... I hate it. I hate it very much.

[ChapTES]

I only use SkyUI because some other mods that I use depend on it.

I prefer the vanilla UI personally, even if it isn't perfect either.

 

I've been thinking this through, and these are my thoughts:

 

Mod authors being able to sell their work for money?

That's fine by me. They did the work, so I don't mind them being able to sell it. I might even pay for a mod...

IF It's a mod that I really want, and if can't or don't want to bother with making that mod myself.

IF It's reasonably cheap.

IF Most of the money goes to the mod author and no one else. (So no, I won't buy from Steam Workshop.)

IF I'm certain that it won't mess upp my game, and

IF It does not contain someone else's work, who has not given permission to others including their assets in paid mods.

 

BUT

If this is going to work, mod authors need legal protection for their work. Something like it being illegal to include someone else's work in a file, even if that work was free - if the original content creator has stated that they don't want others to make profit off of that content. As it is now, it doesn't work and it will only be bad for everyone involved.

Bold. This, I think a lot of  SkyUI downloads are because it's required for quite a lot of mods. They are essentially cashing in on those successful mods.

[Mardoxx]

This has the smell of mobile apps all over it... I hate it. I hate it very much.

To quote myself from nexus

If it wasn't for this opportunity Schlangster would never have undertaken the crafting menus.

You, as a presumably non paying customer, have missed out on nothing. There was never going to be a crafting overhaul for you, you're in the same position as before. See where I am coming from?

I am sorry if these are not the words you want to hear.

[marthgun]

glad you reposted that from the last thread Princess_Stomper, good insight.

 

now send me some shekels.

 

 

I only use SkyUI because some other mods that I use depend on it.

I prefer the vanilla UI personally, even if it isn't perfect either.

 

I've been thinking this through, and these are my thoughts:

 

Mod authors being able to sell their work for money?

That's fine by me. They did the work, so I don't mind them being able to sell it. I might even pay for a mod...

IF It's a mod that I really want, and if can't or don't want to bother with making that mod myself.

IF It's reasonably cheap.

IF Most of the money goes to the mod author and no one else. (So no, I won't buy from Steam Workshop.)

IF I'm certain that it won't mess upp my game, and

IF It does not contain someone else's work, who has not given permission to others including their assets in paid mods.

 

BUT

If this is going to work, mod authors need legal protection for their work. Something like it being illegal to include someone else's work in a file, even if that work was free - if the original content creator has stated that they don't want others to make profit off of that content. As it is now, it doesn't work and it will only be bad for everyone involved.

 

 

SkyUI is a bit of an interesting one because while it doesn't rely on mods to work, there are a bunch of mods that rely on it. 

 

That smacks of selfishness imo.  If that had been known before those mods were made to work with SkyUI, that would be different.  but what are other mods relying on it going to do?  have two sepearte updates?  Will the feel obligated to buy SkyUI and update their mod for their user base?

 

but you bring up good points, there's no oversight or quality control on steam workshop, anyone that's reported mods on steam workshop and seen how long it takes for them to even do anything about it, knows that it was goofed from the get go.

[funnybunny]

gotta say, even though people may not like this decision, it is certainly a major case of Succès de scandale, I mean these threads alone have gotten more attention in half a day than this entire board has in the past month..

[ChapTES]

Also the petition is on 50k signatures which is very impressive considering the short period it has been up (13 hours ish). Only other petition I saw go up this fast was the Jeremy Clarkson Top Gear one.

[Sir-Stabs-Alot]

Well, for what it's worth, I'm not going to charge for mods, so that's several you can access for free for a start. They're not perfect (I don't think I've ever seen a perfect mod!) but I like them and I hope you will too. I have a feeling there are thousands of other modders like me who are that bit old-fashioned, and will continue to do it just for fun in a bring-and-share mentality, so I think your game is safe for now.

Never change. Seriously. Bethesda would not be in the place they are right now if it wasn't for the work people like you put in back in the Morrowind days. You have always been one of the best representatives of the modding community through the years and I am so glad to see your principles have remained intact.

[pariah_dog]

Interesting Tripwire Interactive updated their End User License Agreement (EULA) for Killing Floor 2 to not allow mods to be sold on the Steam Workshop,

 

https://www.reddit.c...loor_2_eula_on/

I would also like to hear if CD Projekt RED has anything to say since I heard mods will be supported for Witcher 3

[Iikagen]

Any changes to core infrastructure like MCM flows back to the free version as well, so no one will be forced to upgrade or anything like that

 

Yeah but you guys are obviously adding new features right? Any mod that wants to add support or integration for those new features can't not upgrade.