48 replies to this topic

[Toesock]

This theory is inspired by that of a Reddit user called Turok, who got quite lambasted for it over there. Though there were some big holes and complications, I thought the general idea may actually have some merit in explaining a few longstanding questions about the Battle of Red Mountain. It's still a crackpot theory, but hopefully the following will demonstrate its plausibility. Let's also keep in mind that the events of Red Mountain were shrouded in a Dragon Break, followed by an entirely rewritten history courtesy of the Tribunal. Not only that, but most tales of the event are Dunmeri propaganda, and the defeated party is not in any position to give their tale. Any theory of these events will therefore have natural contradictions and anachronisms.

 

In the book "The Changed Ones", an obvious parallel is intended between the creation of the Orcs and the Creation of Dunmer. It suggests that the Dunmer colour change - usually attributed to the Battle of Red Mountain - occurred at the time of the Orcs' creation ("He demonstrated the right way to wear their skin"). Perhaps they were given the name Chimer - Changed People - because they too experienced a literal physical change at the time of Trinimac's defeat. What if the Orcs were created at Red Mountain, and the advent of the Chimer and the advent of the Dunmer are in fact two versions of the same event? After all, Dunmer means "cursed", and Malacath is the god of curses.

 

"The Changed Ones," from this perspective, is an allegorical description of the sundering of the Dwemer-Dunmer alliance and the ringing of the heart. Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala (represented by Alandro Sul, Nerevar, and perhaps Voryn Dagoth) lead the Dunmer people against their kin. Dumac and the non-erased Dwemer people take on the role of Trinimac - opposing the Dunmeri worldview and reawakening the tone of the Heart's removal. The Nord histories still remember who played which roles.

 

As we know, the Battle of Red Mountain was a re-enactment of the dawn which took place within a dragon break. Amongst the many other myth-echos, we have the Dwemer playing upon the heart to become one with a robotic Lorkhan stand-in. The experiment's intent is to remove themselves in the image of the missing god, and leave behind an engine of further world-refusal. However, like good scientists, they leave behind a control group. This is the Rourken clan who opposed allegiance with the Chimer in the first place.

 

So the Dwemer are removed, along with the entire cultural identity of Dwemeris. The survivors, no longer Dwarves per se, fuse mythically with the last action of their people - removing. As the heart wails at the reminder of its sundering, the people of its torturer become identified with Trinimac-the-Sunderer, remover of the heart. Dumac, who thanks to myth-roles and broken time has become Trinimac, is soon slain by Nerevar-who-is-Boethiah. The remainder of Dumac's people (The Rouken Control Group) become the orcs. Malacath is born. This is where the Boethiah-ate-Trinimac legend comes from.

 

Red Mountain erupts. The Nords who were present attribute this to Malouch's Rage at what has happened, and give him the sobriquet "Mountain Fart". Alandro/Nerevar/Dagoth are later slain/supplanted by the tribunal, creating the anticipations schema. They re-write history, erasing most of what has occurred.

 

As for the Rourken, they flee, taking Volendrung and flinging it into the western skies. Whether thanks to the red moment or numidial shennanigans, this weapon rips straight through spacetime. A void appears over hammerfell in multiple points in time, and so-called "Giant Goblins" pour out. This is Daggerfall's "Goblin Gate". They spread over the west coast throughout time, creating and destroying their own civilization in true dragon-break fashion. Eventually they come into conflict with Ragada, Bretons, Chimer, and Nords, outsiders as ever, and inextricably linked to Trinimac/Malacath. As the echoes of the red moment fade, they continue to live as reclusive stoic metalworkers, but all traces of Dwemeri culture is gone - it was removed from the pattern of possibility along with the Numidial Dwemer. They forge ahead with a brand new identity, centered on Malacath. Volendrung, tool of his people's escape, becomes an artifact of Malacath, thus explaining an age-old confusion about why the hammer is a daedric artifact. 

 

tl;dr

What Happened:

-The Rourken were the control group in the Numidium experiment

-Kagrenac rang the tone of the heart's removal

-The Dwemer were fused to the image of Lorkhan-Numidium and went missing

-The Rourken were fused to the myth-echo of the heart-remover-Trinimac

-Dwemer cultural identity is unmade

-Survivors of both sides of the war were physically changed

-The Rourken-Orcs flung Volendrung over Hammerfell

-A tear in spacetime occurs over Hammerfell, spilling "Giant Goblins"

-Orcs populate the west, retaining little trace of their former culture

 

What it Explains:

-Why Volendrung is an artifact of Malacath

-Why Dumac is called Dumalacath and Dwarf-Orc

-Why the eruption of Red Mountain is blamed on Malouch's rage

-What the Orcs were doing at Red Mountain

-Why the Chimer were called Chimer before any obvious physical change

-Why "The Changed Ones" implies that the Dunmer's skin changed after Trinimac's defeat

-What's with the "Goblin Gate"?

 

 

[Indoril Nethyn]

Very interesting. The only hang up I can think of is the Rourken clan already having inhabited Hammerfell before the Battle of Red Mountain. They did leave behind their ruins and animunculi. If the Rourken clan was indeed transformed during the Battle of Red Mountain, how would that explain said ruins?

[Aramithius]

This is a really neat idea... and it all kind of fits if you squint hard enough. The clues are all there... although is there any other explanation for the Dwarf-Orc title?

 

The only thought I have for it is why would it be Dumac that takes the role of Trinimac? If we are appealing to the identity of one of the Dwemer as the ones who tortured the Heart of Lorkhan, surely the myth-echo would be Kagrenac, who (from other accounts of the Battle, it's true) was likely the most usual user of the Tools with the Heart? Unless we posit Dumac and Kagrenac as the same person, but then we have Yagrum as a problem, who knew Kagrenach personally and didn't identify the two. Of course, unless we identify the Dwemer people as the offending party, and Dumac as their representative via his kingship... but I'm sceptical of that approach as being too impersonal.

 

But it would make it fit, I think.

Edited by Aramithius, 29 September 2014 - 05:03 PM.

[Toesock]

Very interesting. The only hang up I can think of is the Rourken clan already having inhabited Hammerfell before the Battle of Red Mountain. They did leave behind their ruins and animunculi. If the Rourken clan was indeed transformed during the Battle of Red Mountain, how would that explain said ruins?

 

That is true, however I'm positing that Volendrung created the goblin gate, which is known to have opened into several first-era timepoints. That doesn't explain the ruins however, so we'd have to posit one of the following: 1. Hammerfell was settled prior to the dragonbreak, and the dwarf-orcs attacked their past selves. 2. The memory of Dwarven culture was more of a slow decline rather than instantaneous, allowing the dwarf-orcs to build for a few generations before forgetting their cultural identity, and when the ragada found the orcs milling about in the old ruins, they assumed they had driven out the dwarves. 3. In the dragonbreak of the red moment, the Rourken were paradoxically both dwarves and orcs, allowing them to simulatiously build Volenfell civilization and tear it down in an instant.

 

This is a really neat idea... and it all kind of fits if you squint hard enough. The clues are all there... although is there any other explanation for the Dwarf-Orc title?

 

The only thought I have for it is why would it be Dumac that takes the role of Trinimac? If we are appealing to the identity of one of the Dwemer as the ones who tortured the Heart of Lorkhan, surely the myth-echo would be Kagrenac, who (from other accounts of the Battle, it's true) was likely the most usual user of the Tools with the Heart? Unless we posit Dumac and Kagrenac as the same person, but then we have Yagrum as a problem, who knew Kagrenach personally and didn't identify the two. Of course, unless we identify the Dwemer people as the offending party, and Dumac as their representative via his kingship... but I'm sceptical of that approach as being too impersonal.

 

But it would make it fit, I think.

 

I can't think of any other Dwarf-Orc explanation that's been put forward, though of course I'm sure other explanations could be devised. You are right about Kagrenac, however he manipulated the heart for the effect he desired - and that was to disappear with the rest of the Dwarves. The remaining Dwemer became attached to Trinimac/Malacath - outsiders, those now without a people. As their king, Dumac became Dumalacath. 

[Malak the Orc]

Interesting. What do you make of Martin's comment about Malacath being one of the most bitter foes of the Dwemer?

[Toesock]

Interesting. What do you make of Martin's comment about Malacath being one of the most bitter foes of the Dwemer?

 

Ah that's interesting, where does he say that?

 

Malacath's people are those left behind - the Dwemer are the ones who abandoned them. And Malacath never forgets.

[Malak the Orc]

Ah that's interesting, where does he say that?

Malacath's people are those left behind - the Dwemer are the ones who abandoned them. And Malacath never forgets.

It's during the "Blood of the Daedra" questline. He says the following when you choose to destroy Volendrung:

Who now knows the tale of how this Dwemer hammer came to embody the power of one of their most bitter foes?

[Cider!]

I really wouldn't take that Volendrung as an example as multiple items throughout Tamrielic history end up under a Daedric prince, for example Goldbrand and spell breaker.

[Toesock]

I really wouldn't take that Volendrung as an example as multiple items throughout Tamrielic history end up under a Daedric prince, for example Goldbrand and spell breaker.

 

True, but Volendrung's daedric nature is specifically phrased as a mystery. See Martin's quote above or the book, "What is Volendrung?" We are supposed to wonder.

[Cider!]

Well, the way I see it is that occasionally a cultist would get a legendary artifact and offer it to their chosen lord, which makes a lot of sense given some of the artifacts we get from the princes.

[Malak the Orc]

I'm gonna add some more fuel to the fire, the fire being the strange connection between Trinimac and the Dwemer.

Awhile back, CaptainG made a thread on this board concerning some dialogue about a "Pearl" mentioned by an NPC named Hayazzin, a Redguard who could be found in the Alik'r desert in ESO. The guy was clearly insane, but he did mention that the "Pearl," which is really just Lorkhan's Heart, fell out of Sep's pocket after Ruptga squashed him. The "Pearl" was then hidden under the sands, where is was later discovered by Zeht, who works the land.

Assuming this tale is true, it could explain why Zeht renounced his father, because the "Pearl" is said to be the "Way and the Guide to the Far Shores." Not to mention, it is usually the Dwarves who are credited with uncovering the Heart, not Zeht.

[blai5000]

I really wouldn't take that Volendrung as an example as multiple items throughout Tamrielic history end up under a Daedric prince, for example Goldbrand and spell breaker.

 

I can't vouch for spell breaker, but there's the theory that Goldbrand once belonged to Triminac (champion the dragon Auriel) and was taken by Boethiah when s/he defeated him.

[Dargor]

I can't vouch for spell breaker, but there's the theory that Goldbrand once belonged to Triminac (champion the dragon Auriel) and was taken by Boethiah when s/he defeated him.

I heard this one as well. IIRC, by spinning what Yagrum says about it being made by Dragons for a knight who was sworn to protect them, and connecting the two entities into Auriel and Trinimac. Both theories toward it are plausible.

[Malak the Orc]

I can't vouch for spell breaker, but there's the theory that Goldbrand once belonged to Triminac (champion the dragon Auriel) and was taken by Boethiah when s/he defeated him.

LOL That would be me who started that idea. First mentioned it here:

http://forums.bethso...e/?fromsearch=1

It was actually my very post I made after leaving these forums in like, 2006-2007.

[896Down]

Added to headcanon. This is a really great theory- explains a lot of stuff that I've wondered about previously.

[viltuska]

I like it for the most parts. Although it was mentioned that dwarf-orc/Dumalacath could have been a slandering term for Dumac, not a reference to his race. The biggest and the only real problem I have is with the tear in space-time thing, that smells of a terrible deus-ex-machina plot device that is used countless times when an easy non-explanation is needed. I think the giant goblins thing is a footnote in mythology that can be brushed off to make this theory perfect.

[Dargor]

I like it for the most parts. Although it was mentioned that dwarf-orc/Dumalacath could have been a slandering term for Dumac, not a reference to his race. The biggest and the only real problem I have is with the tear in space-time thing, that smells of a terrible deus-ex-machina plot device that is used countless times when an easy non-explanation is needed. I think the giant goblins thing is a footnote in mythology that can be brushed off to make this theory perfect.

Given that Malacath represents the test of Dunmeri physical prowess and how often the two had a tendency to clash, equating Dumac to Malacath is reasonable without the two actually being similar entities. I'm also not seeing how the Rourken are indicative of being a so called control group, as I don't think any tonal architecture worth is salt would think that running to the opposite end of the continent would somehow save them from the tampering of the Heart of the World. There's also the bit that they left embittered by the Dwemer/Chimer alliance. 

 

That, and the fact that the Orcs have inhabited Skyrim way back during the time of the 500. Pretty sure the topic comes up in Skyrim itself as well.

Edited by Dargor, 30 September 2014 - 01:46 AM.

[Aramithius]

 

That, and the fact that the Orcs have inhabited Skyrim way back during the time of the 500. Pretty sure the topic comes up in Skyrim itself as well.

 

This is true... any example of dwarves and orcs living in the same timeline does rather put the kibosh to the theory - all I can think of is a "once, therefore always" event caused by the mythopoeic re-enactment, but even that never really has the same clear side-by-side result that such a coexistence would imply. There would be too many examples of "who was it who actually did X?" for it not to stand out.

[Cider!]

Er, Auri-el wasn't a dragon, in most myths he is portrayed more bird like just like how Lorkhan is always portrayed as a serpent or a snake, which brings us to Akatosh the Time-Dragon, a bird (Auri-El) and snake (Lorkhan or Shezzar) fused to make a dragon (Akatosh) so the Goldbrand being aligned with Trinimac theory isn't really all that good as Trinimac was the champion of Auri-El and not Akatosh.

Also I only used spell-breaker and goldbrand as examples, there are more artifacts that are aligned with Daedric Princes yet don't originate from said prince. Take Mehrune's Razor as a prime example, originally it was just an enchanted dagger made by the dark brotherhood, for all we know it was another version of the Blade of Woe that later was adopted by Mehrunes Dagon.

The Ring of the Khajiiti, The Spear of Bitter Mercy, probably even more artifacts we don't know about. I wouldn't be surprised if the Prince's were given the artifacts as offerings from their cultists and then seeing the power the artifact held decided to imbue said artifact with a part of their essence.

Umbra is another good example as it was created by a mortal but was imbued with the essence of Clavicus Vile.

Another point to make is why are the Orsimer in skyrim used as an example? Why not the Falmer? Think about it, there were two Mer races living in skyrim at the time and one of them were devoted Aedric worshipers, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to claim the Orsimer in skyrim are somehow more related to the Falmer instead of the Dwemer? Wouldn't it make more sense to claim that the Trinimac-worshipping Falmer were the ones changed into Orsimer and not the Dwemer? Also Dumac's name "Dwarf-Orc" implies that the Dwemer and the Orsimer were around at the same time yet we see nothing from texts linking the two races as looking the same, especially since there was a 500 year-long peace with Dumac Dwarf-Orc and Nerevar ruling together, you'd think that the Chimer would write about how they bare an appearance to the Orsimer.

I'm sorry but the theory that the Dwemer became the Orsimer is filled with too many holes, the closest we could get to is that the Orsimer and the Dwemer had some dealings with each other and possibly political marriages other then that everything is highly questionable.

Edited by Cider!, 30 September 2014 - 08:16 AM.

[dinmenel]

Er, Auri-el wasn't a dragon, in most myths he is portrayed more bird like just like how Lorkhan is always portrayed as a serpent or a snake, which brings us to Akatosh the Time-Dragon, a bird (Auri-El) and snake (Lorkhan or Shezzar) fused to make a dragon (Akatosh) so the Goldbrand being aligned with Trinimac theory isn't really all that good as Trinimac was the champion of Auri-El and not Akatosh.

 

Direct descriptions are sparse, but Auri-el is a dragon and has always been. Starting with 'Auri-El Time Dragon' in Varieties of Faith and going all the way through to ESO's ambient dialogue references to 'the scales of Auri-el,' every single piece of evidence indicates that Auri-el ent a bird. Including the Ayleid statue from Oblivion, which shows the warrior separate from the bird. The devs have even said that the eagle symbol of the Aldmeri Dominion represents their ancestors generally, not any one in particular:

 

"The Aldmeri Dominion has adopted as its symbol the eagle sigil of the High Elves of Summerset. For the Altmer, the high-soaring eagle represents their ancestors the Aedra, who came from the heavens and were trapped in physical form by the creation of Nirn."

 

_{Sorry, pet peeve.}

[Haute Quêteure]

I would believe it, only Arniel's blaspheming didn't get himself pigfaced.

[Toesock]

I would believe it, only Arniel's blaspheming didn't get himself pigfaced.

 

Nah he got deleted like the majority of Dwarfkind. Not to mention his experiment did a terrible job of replicating the original conditions. Soulgem? Please.

[Haute Quêteure]

Nah he got deleted like the majority of Dwarfkind. Not to mention his experiment did a terrible job of replicating the original conditions. Soulgem? Please.

 

It's all a matter of scale.

 

Anyway, neither our dear Dragonborn nor any of those tenured lunatics in Countenance Hall sprouted tusks to compensate for the Arniel de-gain.

[dinmenel]

There was no element of 'removal' in Gane's ill-constructed misadventure - hence, no Trinimac resonance.

[blai5000]

Nah he got deleted like the majority of Dwarfkind. Not to mention his experiment did a terrible job of replicating the original conditions. Soulgem? Please.

 

To be fair, it wasn't the first time somebody decided to use a soul gem in place of the Missing God's Heart.  One wonders what would have happened if the Dragonborn were performing the experiment instead of Arniel.

[Dovahsebrom]

To be fair, it wasn't the first time somebody decided to use a soul gem in place of the Missing God's Heart.  One wonders what would have happened if the Dragonborn were performing the experiment instead of Arniel.

The Mantella isn't any ordinary soul gem.

[blai5000]

The Mantella isn't any ordinary soul gem.

 

Neither was Arniel's.

 

But really, it doesn't matter, since there were plenty of other issues with his experiment anyways.

[Cider!]

Trinimac was a god that loved orthodoxy, the Dwemer spat in the face of anything orthodox and laughed at it, I highly doubt that the Dwemer would even look at Trinimac with anything but laughter.

[Toesock]

Trinimac was a god that loved orthodoxy, the Dwemer spat in the face of anything orthodox and laughed at it, I highly doubt that the Dwemer would even look at Trinimac with anything but laughter.

 

Luckily, the theory doesn't posit that the Dwemer ever worshiped him, or regarded him as anything other than a means to carry out their cosmic play.

[Nordendrache]

Cool theory. I wonder how does this fits in to explain Olendrung and its connection with Ysgrim? (BTW Herkel is Jurgen Windcaller, right?)