200 replies to this topic

[Redwood Elf]

They will need to fix this debacle. Here's to hoping they will.

And my suggestion wouldn't fix it because....?

[SomeWelshGuy]

So will giving vanilla NavMeshes editor IDs, and converting the plugin to either a bona-fide ESM or a false flag ESP fix all issues? Or are some still present?

[Antiscamp3]

And my suggestion wouldn't fix it because....?

Oh. I wasn't replying to you specifically. I think your suggestion is good though.

I was just generally placing a post in this thread to raise my flag in the matter. Bethesda needs to fix this NavMesh-bug asap.

[thekarithian]

Entirely behind you on this, we need to be pushing at Bethesda with a single voice telling them just how critical and serious this bug is. It basically makes a huge quantity of mods a waste of time. As someone said, how many people are currently making custom locations? It is truly, truly astounding.

Navmesh: broken
Havok/Collision beyond -64 and +64 cells east/west: broken

Combine them and for many of us the CK is useless. We need to keep this highly topical and publicised.

The video explains the workaround and conversion of an esp to esm is possible using TES4Gecko, though its still an issue that needs to be resolved. Gecko works to convert (Ive tried it) and is best used on 64 bit machines to allow massive memory to be accessed for the larger mods. If anyone doesnt have access to a 64 bit rig I will do the conversion on mine and have plenty of web space to allow file transfer back and forth.

Edited by thekarithian, 17 February 2012 - 12:15 PM.

[TheGameStarr]

They will need to fix this debacle. Here's to hoping they will.

They will. This problem and all the others are simply too serious for Bethesda to ignore. They've taken notice already. This statement was posted three days ago by Joel Burgess in the thread"@ admins: Are Bethesda intending to patch the CK or is this it?":

We are currently working on updates for the Creation Kit. More details will be posted when available, but we're paying attention to the community and implementing whatever fixes we can, as well as ongoing fixes for both the dev team and modders.

[SomeWelshGuy]

They will. This problem and all the others are simply too serious for Bethesda to ignore. They've taken notice already. This statement was posted three days ago by Joel Burgess in the thread"@ admins: Are Bethesda intending to patch the CK or is this it?":

They never fixed the A Bomb bug in Oblivion. Or the same NavMesh bug for Fallout.

I'm not putting anything down because I do believe they will fix it. But it's easy to see how others don't believe that.

Edited by SomeWelshGuy, 17 February 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[TheGameStarr]

They never fixed the A Bomb bug in Oblivion. Or the same NavMesh bug for Fallout.

I'm not putting anything down because I do believe they will fix it. But it's easy to see how others don't believe that.

Admittedly, the A-Bomb bug was quite major for long-term players. But as far as I could see, there didn't seem to be any fuss about the NavMesh bug back in the days of Fallout. It seemed to only get noticed after the Creation Kit was released. I'd guess it's because of the Elder Scrolls' huge modding community, while Fallout didn't have that big of one.

[Darkstorne]

Sent an email to Kotaku about these issues - both the Navmesh and Large World Space bugs. They're usually pretty good when it comes to drumming up media attention for good causes.


We need these issues to be made very clear, and to get some good media attention if Bethesda are going to fix them. The Navmesh bug was ignored for Fallout 3, and the fact that it's STILL present in Skyrim is really worrying.

[Zanderat]

The Navmesh bug was ignored for Fallout 3, and the fact that it's STILL present in Skyrim is really worrying.

But I thought it was a new engine?

Edited by Zanderat, 17 February 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[Arthmoor]

So will giving vanilla NavMeshes editor IDs, and converting the plugin to either a bona-fide ESM or a false flag ESP fix all issues? Or are some still present?

Giving vanilla navmeshes an editor ID before you start modifying them seems to help for those locations you can do that in. My NPCs have been able to walk up to the edge of where those give way to newly generated ones that are still borked.

False-flag .esp file doesn't work. You end up with exactly the opposite problem. Your newly generated stuff will work, but *ALL* of your modified vanilla forms will fail to register. Not just the navmeshes. No way to know if a bona-fide .esm file works because it most likely requires ONAM records we can't generate yet. Having to go this route (MasterUpdate method in Fallout 3) is *NOT* an acceptable solution because it destroys load order separation between master files and plugins.

[SomeWelshGuy]

Giving vanilla navmeshes an editor ID before you start modifying them seems to help for those locations you can do that in. My NPCs have been able to walk up to the edge of where those give way to newly generated ones that are still borked.

False-flag .esp file doesn't work. You end up with exactly the opposite problem. Your newly generated stuff will work, but *ALL* of your modified vanilla forms will fail to register. Not just the navmeshes. No way to know if a bona-fide .esm file works because it most likely requires ONAM records we can't generate yet. Having to go this route (MasterUpdate method in Fallout 3) is *NOT* an acceptable solution because it destroys load order separation between master files and plugins.

Wow.

I'm getting frustrated just thinking of it, and I've got nothing released yet. A big, released mod like Open Cities, and you can just sit and do nothing about it...I feel your pain.

[Terra Nova]

But I thought it was a new engine?

I think new engine only applies to the game itself, and not exactly the editor. The editor obviously uses the same codes as all the previous. I mean honestly, I don't see a point in them lying about something like that, so evidently, "new engine" is applied elsewhere.

[Zanderat]

Except, this is an engine bug left over from FO3............

[Darkstorne]

I think new engine only applies to the game itself, and not exactly the editor. The editor obviously uses the same codes as all the previous. I mean honestly, I don't see a point in them lying about something like that, so evidently, "new engine" is applied elsewhere.

The "new engine" part is just a lie. Not even bending the truth, a flat out lie. We've just got to cross our fingers and hope Bethesda are a some-what decent company, and will fix the CK. If they ignore us completely, they're as bad as Activision in my book.

[Terra Nova]

Ok you win.

[RickerHK]

Except, this is an engine bug left over from FO3............

Actually - it's two bugs. The same one left over from FO3/FNV - in which setting the esm bit in the plugin 'fixed' the problem. If that one doesn't get fixed, people should still be able to make their mods work. It's the new bug with the CK, that is marking as 'deleted' modified vanilla navmeshes, that will really put a damper on things if it isn't fixed.

[regomar]

They will need to fix this debacle. Here's to hoping they will.

They didn't fix it for 3 releases over almost 5 years now. Why are people expecting a fix?

Anyway, this bug as well as the other high profile ones have completely killed any desire I had to mod. Upsetting to learn about this negligence from Bethesda after putting numerous hours into learning the CK. Oh well.

[Rhoark]

Bethesda seems to have developed a very different philosophy on post-release support since FO3.

[Antiscamp3]

They didn't fix it for 3 releases over almost 5 years now. Why are people expecting a fix?

Anyway, this bug as well as the other high profile ones have completely killed any desire I had to mod. Upsetting to learn about this negligence from Bethesda after putting numerous hours into learning the CK. Oh well.

Let's all lay down and die, eh.

[KhadirgroGhurkag]

Let's all lay down and die, eh.

No.

Let's all give up on Bethesda and help out the SKSE, Script Dragon, Oscape, TESAnnwyn and so on teams and people with ideas, bug reports and code. At least they get [censored] done.

[TheGameStarr]

No.

Let's all give up on Bethesda and help out the SKSE, Script Dragon, Oscape, TESAnnwyn and so on teams and people with ideas, bug reports and code. At least they get [censored] done.

Nothing would get done if everyone thought like you and gave up. Bethesda have already acknowledged the community's bug report. Again, I will repost Joel Burgess' statement:

We are currently working on updates for the Creation Kit. More details will be posted when available, but we're paying attention to the community and implementing whatever fixes we can, as well as ongoing fixes for both the dev team and modders.

Besides, the issues with the Creation Kit are simply too serious to ignore. And the chances of them being irreparable are highly unlikely.

[G. B. Jackson]

They didn't fix it for 3 releases over almost 5 years now. Why are people expecting a fix?

Anyway, this bug as well as the other high profile ones have completely killed any desire I had to mod. Upsetting to learn about this negligence from Bethesda after putting numerous hours into learning the CK. Oh well.

When did you start learning the CK? The reason I ask is because I put a note on the Wiki's navemesh page at the bottom, pointing out the issue. I also put it in the Wiki's video tutorial list, And on the list I maintain at the top of the forum. And I posted a comment about it in the video tutorial's comments. So if you are just now learning about the issue, it is not because you were not told. It is because you did not read it.

[Arthmoor]

No.

Let's all give up on Bethesda and help out the SKSE, Script Dragon, Oscape, TESAnnwyn and so on teams and people with ideas, bug reports and code. At least they get [censored] done.

All respect to those folks who make such tools, but no. Modders should not be responsible for fixing Bethesda's stuff for them. These bugs need to be fixed by the company, and I don't see any reason why they won't considering it has a deeply negative impact on the Steam Workshop and the target audience who uses it.

[EmptyK]

A fix for the issue of .esp-based navmeshes reloading from the masterfile (or not at all) is in the works. This is getting addressed.

[regomar]

When did you start learning the CK? The reason I ask is because I put a note on the Wiki's navemesh page at the bottom, pointing out the issue. I also put it in the Wiki's video tutorial list, And on the list I maintain at the top of the forum. And I posted a comment about it in the video tutorial's comments. So if you are just now learning about the issue, it is not because you were not told. It is because you did not read it.

I've been modding since Morrowind so I just jumped in and started messing with it. Figured with knowledge of Oblivion and Morrowind's modding tools that I would be fine but ran into issues with Navmeshes, researched it, and ended up here.

But thanks for passing the blame on to me. Stay classy.

Also, your note on the wiki is all the way at the bottom in the place least likely to be seen by people that might be cherrypicking data from the wiki (which is the type of browsing a wiki is DESIGNED for)

[regomar]

A fix for the issue of .esp-based navmeshes reloading from the masterfile (or not at all) is in the works. This is getting addressed.

Thank you for this confirmation. Consider my interest (and I'm sure many others') in modding renewed.

[Gorun Nova]

A fix for the issue of .esp-based navmeshes reloading from the masterfile (or not at all) is in the works. This is getting addressed.

Thank you! ^^

Given the nature and severity of the issue I figured it'd be addressed, but official notice mentioning that it is being dealt with is always welcome.

[Zombiecurse]

A fix for the issue of .esp-based navmeshes reloading from the masterfile (or not at all) is in the works. This is getting addressed.

Thank you very much for verifying.

[Balok]

A fix for the issue of .esp-based navmeshes reloading from the masterfile (or not at all) is in the works. This is getting addressed.

And there was MUCH rejoycing!!!

[Krog]

A fix for the issue of .esp-based navmeshes reloading from the masterfile (or not at all) is in the works. This is getting addressed.

I love you.